How to Keep Up WIth All Things Tax Related with Jeremias Ramos (Part 2)
In this two part episode Phil interviews Jeremias Ramos, a New York tax profesisonal that runs a successful CPA blog. Phil and Jeremias talk about how working at home is working out well for his firm while being curious what the New York real estate market is going to look like in the coming years. They finish off their conversation with some very clear tips on how to pass the CPA exam and what employers may be looking for.
Narrator [00:00:00] This is the second part of the conversation between Phil and Jeremiah about how to keep up with all things tax related if you haven't listened to the first part of this episode. Check your podcast feed.
Narrator [00:00:12] Hello and thank you for tuning in to another episode of CPA review and more. We are pleased to bring you the number one podcast for CPAs and CPA candidates. If you'd like to learn more about how Yaeger CPA Review can help you, find us on our website at Yaeger, CPA Review dot com. Now, here's your host, Phil Yeager.
Phil [00:00:37] When you came out of college, what area--did you know what area you wanted to go into? Was taxes the area you wanted to do?
Jeremias [00:00:46] It's funny because the first job I had, there was a mix of--they called it--I think it was a business advisory service or client service. You had the tax department, which was mostly just 1040s, partnership returns, S Corps, and whatnot. And then you had tax, where it was fully comps reviews, audits. That's where you're going to do 99% of your time. Then we had the middle, which was you did some comps, you did some reviews, you did a couple of tax returns here or there, you write up some books, you do sales tax. You are in a sense, the face of the firm where you go out to clients, you do some maybe advisory services. So it's a hodgepodge where you're supposed to know a little bit of everything in order to answer any of the clients questions. But it's funny because when I first started out and it was in a sense how your personality was, that's where you kind of ended up. So if you're someone who is more introverted, sometimes they put you in tax. If you're someone who's more outgoing, extroverted, they would oftentimes put you in audit. So I'd say it's almost like the cool kids are the auditors and the nerds are the tax folks. So I guess that's why I probably lean more to tax.
Phil [00:01:57] I found auditing to be extremely boring, where they put me in the tax area and I just enjoyed it more because a lot of times you'd be able to talk with the clients. And when you're for example, I work for a CPA firm on Wall Street. And I remember one day, middle of summer, we're in the safe, the vault counting security, you know, looking at security documents. And I swear, after one week of that, if they had me come back for another week, I was going to pull my hair out. All right. It was the most boring thing I didn't like. Now, interestingly enough, I asked people, "do you like auditing?" A lot of them like it!
Phil [00:02:42] You know. They say they get to see different types of businesses and they just enjoy it. But, you know, all the fond memories of auditing was how to make tick marks. It's all I remember about auditing. But no, I like taxes better because I don't like anything that's involved with, you know, you can talk to people, and and also taxation is, to me, like a puzzle. Someone comes in and they say, "hey, these are the facts and I'm paying too much taxes. Can you give me some ideas how I could possibly save taxes?".
Phil [00:03:19] Now, that's a puzzle as far as I'm concerned. And I thought that was interesting because in a lot of cases, no two people have the same problems. So but the problem I had is when I went into taxes, all right, I did not have a law degree. I just had an MBA, a CPA, and they stopped allowing accountants, CPAs to be in the tax department. What happened was all the people most of the people on the tax department were LLMs, CPAs. So you couldn't get into tax departments easily. And I don't see why a CPA couldn't be in the tax department. Now there are plenty of CPAs in tax departments.
Phil [00:04:10] Do you have any LLMs, master of tax people in the tax department? You have a lot of those?
Jeremias [00:04:17] I would say probably none. At this point it's mostly just CPAs or people who came out of college and are working on their CPA.
Phil [00:04:25] And by the way, when you hire someone, are you looking for people--do you go after the entry level or to go after experienced people?
Jeremias [00:04:34] So in today's world, it's really hard to find experienced people, mostly just because the nature of public accounting. Usually if you're a manager or senior manager or supervisor even, it's usually either you stay at your current firm or you get out of public accounting altogether. So what our firm and what a lot of firms have found difficult is finding those key pieces, whether it be senior supervisor who are competent and can do a really good job.
Jeremias [00:05:04] It's much easier to recruit on the on the bottom level. And so people who are graduating out of college, who want a fresh start, who want to learn as much as possible, public accounting is definitely the way to do that. And then as you go up the ranks, once you become senior or supervisor manager, you kind of know if you want to do public accounting long-term or if you kind of want to take a different direction with your career.
Phil [00:05:30] Can you find it hard to compete with the big four when they go to the colleges? You know, there's a lot of those people like to get into the big four. Do you have trouble? Do you have how do you compete with them? I guess that's what I'm asking. You're obviously not as big as Arthur--I was going to say Arthur Andersen, boy, I'm out of touch here--Pricewaterhouse. Can they offer more benefits, more salary than you can or you can be competitive?
Jeremias [00:06:02] I would say across the industry it's pretty comparable. So someone who's working at a midsize firm probably is going to earn around somewhat of what someone is going to be working at the big four. The only thing is that there's a prestige that--people have a perception of prestige. If they're working at a big four, they might see it as they have an easier transition into a private company. If they work for a Big Four, if they work for large companies, they can work and do provisions that, let's say Microsoft or Apple. Then if they went to a midsize firm, it's kind of harder to make that transition. So they definitely have the ability to recruit more. But I would say the kind of people that we usually get, maybe the resume is not pristine or they didn't go to Harvard or whatnot, but we get a lot of hard working people who really want to learn. And when they come aboard, they work a ton of hours. They're really willing to learn.
Jeremias [00:06:54] We've been able to get a lot of people who are good fits, who probably are the caliber of a big four, but because they didn't have the perceived prestige resume or they didn't speak the right way, or they might not be presentable, they're definitely people who are superstars in their own right.
Phil [00:07:12] When you interview at the colleges--do you go to the colleges and interview?
Jeremias [00:07:16] Normally what we do is we have like a super day, they call it, where we invite a bunch of people from different colleges. They sit around a table, we discuss we talk about the internship opportunities working here full time. And then what we do is we split them up into different groups. And the interview with four or five people during that day. So we ask questions ranging from what areas of accounting do you like? Do you want to do tax? You want to do audit? What things interests you? It's really difficult interviewing someone who's straight out of college because there's the expectation that they're not going to know anything. So you can ask about one sixty three day or can you prepare complicated returns. But you're mostly doing is just seeing if they're a good culture fit. If it's someone that they're positive, they're a kind person and some of that and you would be willing to work with and then just making sure that you do the hard work of training that individual so they're competent as they move up the ranks.
Phil [00:08:15] Tell me if you feel comfortable answering this question. OK, I'll give you the question. I'm interviewing with you and I say, you know, I want to go with the big four because the prestige and then if I leave there, I can get a much better job because they say I work for the big four versus your firm. All right. How do you address that? You know that issue if it comes up?
Jeremias [00:08:39] Yeah. So I would say usually if you work for a big four, a lot of people would tell you that, you know, you're going to be stuck in a certain area that you may or may not like. You might just do provisions. You might have one specific tax provision or you might do income taxes, but just the state of Maryland income taxes, and that's all you do for the rest of your career. So definitely when you work at a midsize firm, you have the opportunity to do a lot more work. You're well rounded. And I would say you're more confident going into the private industry or just remaining in public accounting just because you've seen a lot more than someone who's at a big four. So you're able to have conversations about tax audit, state and local issues, foreign issues. So some people joke that when big for they need to talk to a client, they need six people in the room because they need six specialists. But in a mid-sized firm, you just got to bring two or three people and you have a slew of information from just those people because they work on so many different things in midsized firms.
Phil [00:09:43] I'll take the job with your firm. I want to ask you if you're familiar with that CPA evolution that's going on.
Jeremias [00:09:54] What's that?
Phil [00:09:55] Okay, that's where in four years the exam is going to be changed and they're going to aim towards more of you, get specialized, you know, they can have an exam lab, the CPA exam, and they'll test in taxes, I.T., all the areas, and then you can decide if they pass the exam.
Phil [00:10:16] Well, for my licensing. All right. I want to come in. I want to go into consulting. So you can do your experience in consulting and that would qualify to get the license. In other words, you don't have to work in a company either under a CPA for a year, which is an experience requirement of states or work at a CPA firm for maybe two years in order to get your license, though. They're going to really say we want the accountant to be well-rounded. OK, and now advisory services, that's the hot topic in many respects. All right. So you want to do that? Fine. All right. We'll count that as your experience requirement.
Phil [00:11:00] That doesn't mean that you can't switch to another specialization at some point, but that's where they're going to do. And they're going to ask more on the CPA exam, the last more information technology, artificial intelligence, all these topics. But right now, what I heard was, all right, I brought up this question, how many schools teach artificial intelligence?
Phil [00:11:24] How many schools teach all that robots and all that stuff? And they said at the CPA, well, they are depending upon you, the firms, to actually give these people the knowledge, you know, because the people in the school are teaching, they probably won't have the knowledge at that point. All right. You feel you can train someone in those areas if they have no experience like consulting or information technology? Do you have people that could train them and let them learn those areas?
Jeremias [00:11:59] Yeah, I think especially now, it's more difficult for first-year staff because there's so much expectation. And then now with automation and sending returns out to different countries or different states and everyone's working remotely, it's kind of hard as a first-year staff to come in and start on a tax return or an audit, and especially now if you have to throw in consulting on them. It's definitely difficult, but I think the push for the future is not just giving first-year staff, just menial task of scanning or entering in one hundred K-1s or, you know, as you said, just making a bunch of tick marks on financial statement.
Jeremias [00:12:42] It needs to be more holistic, the training, where you need to almost in a sense, the first year you shouldn't have a second MBA where you're learning about clients, you're learning about what they do, how they do it. You're learning about complex areas of tax law. The fact that these individuals need to, in a sense, be able to review a return the first year is going to be huge. So if you have artificial intelligence, they're taking a hundred K-1s, they're popping into return and you have all the computers and robots and they're doing what a first-year staff would normally do. You need to get these individuals to a level where they're essentially going to be a senior in the first year right out of college. And that's a huge transition. And the only way that you're going to do that is by investing a lot in education.
Phil [00:13:31] Now, a lot of them go on for the master's anyway, but one hundred and fifty hours. So are you saying they should get all that training in the master's program?
Jeremias [00:13:44] They should, but I'm always hesitant and especially with degrees. It seems like the cost is going higher and higher. But it's the level of education that you're receiving is pretty much consistent. But it hasn't been much change in accounting tax, especially when you look at partnership taxation, C Corps. You might have some things on the edges, like different credits that come and go. But the majority of tax law has been the same for quite a long time and the principles are always there.
Jeremias [00:14:16] It doesn't make sense that these degrees now you're spending $100,000 just to, you know, the first year out, that you're scanning or just entering K-1s into a return. So I would say there has to be more of a push to educate beyond just the principles and the basics so that these individuals can be consultants. They could be technical reviewers. They should be able to do more than just an entry level job that they're not really that good at.
Phil [00:14:44] The people who apply to your company: do you have a lot of them that got online university degrees in accounting?
Jeremias [00:14:51] Well, most of them they did go to a school in the local area. Maybe they went to a different state, but I haven't seen any that had online degrees. Might be a push for the future, especially now. I feel like everyone's getting an online degree, even if you're going to a four year school.
Phil [00:15:11] Oh, these online programs are you know, every week you hear about a new one coming out of the woodwork, you know, and I wonder, how do you learn accounting online? I mean, I needed a professor there, maybe didn't know everything, but at least you had someone you get to ask questions to, and they would answer them at that point. The online is mostly everything is done on the Internet. So I don't know to me be hard to in my mind to say I'm going to hire a person with an online degree, OK, because they can really get their questions answered because a lot of those teachers there, all they do is email them. They give them a case study, they give them a project. And everything is done on the email. They really don't have any contact with that professor. Because I'm wondering how many firms, how many companies, are hiring people with these online degrees? Because the online degrees, as you said, are very expensive.
Jeremias [00:16:16] Yeah, I would say it's probably more of a perception issue that people see online degrees as not as valuable, where they look at names, like Fordham or a Pace, and that their traditional schools, they have a lot of endowments, they have the name that goes along with it. But I would say that someone who went to a community college and maybe they went to something more of like Baruch, which is a state school, that you probably get equivalent education, maybe even better in certain circumstances than if you went to a Harvard to get an accounting degree.
Jeremias [00:16:52] So I would say as long as they're getting the information that they need to be getting, that they're passionate, that they're trying to learn, I would say it's more about the individual than about the name of the school. So I think when we interview people, we need to not put as much weight on their academic credentials, but just on their passion, what they're interested in. Those are the people that they're going to continually learn on the job, because--just because you have a four year degree or even a master's doesn't mean that you're going to be a great accountant, that a lot of the process comes afterwards where you have someone who has 40 years in the industry. They did 40 years of learning. The four year degree that they have was probably 0.1% of the knowledge that they attained.
Jeremias [00:17:36] So it's definitely just finding that individual that's passionate about learning and they're seeking to learn more on the job and try to take on more and more work that's more and more complicated.
Phil [00:17:48] We were talking before we went on, and you said that you advise people about the CPA exam, correct?
Jeremias [00:17:56] Correct. Yeah.
Phil [00:17:58] If I came to you and I'm saying, "Jeremiah, what can you advise me about studying for the CPA exam? Is there anything you could tell me that would make my journey a lot easier?
Jeremias [00:18:12] Yeah. So a lot of people reach out to me on LinkedIn or through Facebook even--people that I went to college with--about asking about the CPA exam. And for those who are in college or who are getting out of college, the first advice that everyone's going to give you is you have to study right away and you have to pass the exam as soon as possible. So that's the first advice.
Jeremias [00:18:34] The second advice I would give is: a lot of people, when they start studying for the exam, they try to be perfectionists. So they watch all the lectures, they read the books, they do note cards. They go through all the multiple choice questions several times. They go to sit for the exam, but they failed the exam. They either get close to a seventy-five or they completely vomit. So what the exam is, especially now what they're pushing more towards is skills based simulations, concepts, more abstract concepts where you can kind of recall the information and apply it to specific situations.
Jeremias [00:19:12] It's no longer that you're going to study one hundred vocabulary words and they're going to spin it at you on the test and they're going to actually what's a current asset? And you have to choose the right answer. They're going to give you more questions that test your concepts than your ability to memorize. They're still going to be a lot of information that you have to memorize. But definitely if you're studying for the exam, try to hone in on those concepts. And the advice that I give to hone in on those concepts.
[00:19:38] The best way and I think the most time efficient way is if you just go through the multiple choice questions. Let's say you go through a section, pick out the best 10 that represent all the information that you learn in that chapter. Go through those questions and look at the question, how it's formulated, and just highlight keywords and ask yourself, what do they ask me? What information are they providing? What information is pertinent to this question? What information is additional that I don't really need? And then go through the the answers to the questions. Is a correct? Why is that correct or why is it not correct. Is B correct? And just continue that process and even go as far as, you know, if this question was asked this way, what would the answer be? If they change this, if they said "and" what would the answer be? Or if they said "or" what would the answer be?
Jeremias [00:20:31] So if you do it that way, you can take ten questions and you make it into one hundred because you just know every single way they could possibly ask this question, you know, what concept they're testing and you're able to answer those questions. So instead of just cramming through one hundred multiple choice questions and thinking you're going to be prepared, it's much better to focus on maybe a top 10, top 20 that has a lot of information that you can dive into and really understand those concepts.
Phil [00:20:59] Interestingly enough, you did not mention one thing that's very important. Okay? And actually all the courses do not mention this. Do you discuss with them about the AICPA blueprints?
Jeremias [00:21:14] I do, yeah.
Phil [00:21:15] Now, do you tell them--what do you tell them about the blueprints?
Jeremias [00:21:19] So what the blueprints are, if anyone doesn't know, the AICPA, they kind of give a roadmap to the CPA. So they show which sections are tested, what percentage of the time of those going to be tested, then show you concepts that are going to be tested. So if you go through there, you can kind of pick out 80% of what the test is going to be on. And you can really focus in on those areas.
Phil [00:21:43] Yeah, I mean, really, the blueprints are what they test on the exam.All right. Because when we took it, I think that the AICPA content specification and the word is specific so people don't study the blueprints. They don't know about them. Right. Most of the courses did not mention them. And it's a good idea. You have to go through those blueprints because they're telling you pretty specifically what's going to be on the exam.
Phil [00:22:13] And, you know, it's amazing. I would say that probably 55-60% of people don't know about the AICPA blueprints. And the reason is because the course they're taking never mentions it. And they don't mention it because they did not rewrite the books when the blueprints came out, correct? Yeah, so that's I find that people do fail, all right. They failed because they didn't know about the blueprints.
Phil [00:22:45] And I would even add to that that if you took a look at the blueprints, they're pretty detailed to the point that if you did it by, let's say, Becker or Wiley or any of these CPA programs, you could literally go through the blueprint, Google some of these topics and learn a lot about them without the formal CPA study material. But a lot of the concepts are taught in school there, in your textbooks. You can find a lot of information online that if you wanted to do something, maybe supplemental, you could go through these blueprints, you can pick up the major topics, you can do additional research to learn more about it, instead of just relying on a book that was given to you from a CPA provider that may not be as updated for what's going to be tested on your specific exam.
Phil [00:23:36] Yeah, I mean, in our course, when we actually wrote the books, all right, we wrote them with the blueprints and we integrated the blueprints in the books and we have every blueprint and then we discuss the topic itself under the blueprint. This way we make sure that the people don't go into the exam without studying what's on the blueprints. Now, of course, you can't remember everything, right?
Phil [00:24:03] But I think the AICPA sort of been slacking on that. This is amazing: 45-50% of the people still don't even know what these blueprints are.
Phil [00:24:17] And that's so important. And the other points that Jeremiah mentioned are very important. Yeah, doing questions is a good thing, but you have to understand the concepts. Memorizing the answers to the questions doesn't help you necessarily understand the concept. Would you agree on that?
Jeremias [00:24:38] I would agree. And a big complaint that a lot of people have after they take the exam, they say none of the questions that I studied were on the exam. And if it was that easy, everyone would pass. They're not taking the same questions and just populating it on the right and exams. What they're doing is they're testing concepts. So if you know the concept of deferred taxes or concepts of certain credits, that you can apply those concepts to those questions that you're not going to expect. Just because I saw this specific question on a test based simulation that I'm going to definitely see it on the exam because that's just not how it works.
Phil [00:25:16] And most people don't realize the test based simulations that these providers give you, they are made up by the providers.
Phil [00:25:24] The AICPA doesn't release really maybe one or two occasionally of the simulations that they threw out of the exam, the pretest problems. So learning these simulations from just the actually constructed by the the provider themselves. I say to people, "did you see that on the exam?" They said, "no". And then they say, "I knew the answers to every one of those task-based simulations that so-and-so gave us". And I said, "they don't make up the exam, alright. The AICPA makes it up."
Phil [00:26:02] So it's it's a lot, you know. I basically emphasized that you really have to be very careful. Take a course, look into the course. It's like buying a car. Would you test drive a car before you buy it? Generally, you would. Do you actually test drive or get samples of the courses?
Phil [00:26:23] Most of the people do not. I don't know if it's laziness. I don't know what it is.
Jeremias [00:26:30] I think a lot of the time it's recommendations they may receive or advertisements they might have seen. They see a price, they might compare it and they'll just pull the trigger. So a lot of a lot of people, if they see a high price tag, they might say this must be the best provider out there. Or if they see a low price tag, they might say maybe they're not as all-encompassing or they might not be as thorough as the other provider. So without doing the research, they're just they throw their money away.
Phil [00:27:00] You can't win. Let me tell you. That's right. If you charge too much, they'll say, oh, that must be a good course. They're charging a lot. If you don't charge if you try to make it a little easier for students to afford. They start saying, why is your price so low? So price doesn't necessarily indicate the quality of a course. I think that's important to understand. So anyway, with that, Jeremiah, is there any other comments you want to say? What about--are you looking for people at your firm? To hire?
Jeremias [00:27:33] Definitely, we're always looking to hire talented people, especially within the senior supervisor ranks, we find a lot of people who fit in pretty well with our firm, those who have a diverse background in the New York City office. We have, I want to say, the most diverse office I've ever worked for. And people from different backgrounds, whether they're from different countries, they speak different languages. They've had different areas of taxation or accounting that they're interested in. So those people will definitely fit with our corporate culture and definitely have a good place to work with. I enjoy the people that I work with personally.
Phil [00:28:12] Very good. Now, if someone wants to get information about your firm, how can they get the information or contact you or contact someone at the firm? How would they do that?
Jeremias [00:28:24] Yeah. So if anyone wants to contact me directly or reach out to human resources, they are always hiring interns. We usually do every quarter where a new intern class will come in. So we're always looking for people who are willing to work, work hard, learn as much as possible. And we definitely see a lot of people, especially at the lower level, where we're bringing in--I think next year--I don't know the exact number, but I think it's 80. We call them empower class where it's first year staff. They go through a whole training process. We make sure they're able to do their job properly. We cover all topics from basic accounting and tax so that when they come in, they can either hit the hit the ground running on anything that they're actually going to see. So a lot of people, they'll be going through trainings like IT-204-LLs and how to prepare them. So when they first start, that's essentially what they're going to be doing. They can just hit the ground running. They got the training. We really focus a lot in our training.
Phil [00:29:27] You said 80 people? You have 80 people possibly coming in?
Jeremias [00:29:32] Don't quote me on the number, but I feel like I remember hearing that somewhere.
Phil [00:29:36] How about seventy-nine?
Jeremias [00:29:37] It might be seventy-nine, yeah.
Phil [00:29:40] But so once again, how do they get a hold of your firm? What should they do if they're interested?
Jeremias [00:29:46] Yes. If they want to reach out to me directly they could email me at JRamos@withum.com.
Phil [00:29:54] All right. So it's "J" for Jeremias, then Ramos, and how do you spell the firm by the way?
Jeremias [00:30:03] It's W i t h u m.
Phil [00:30:07] That's it. Just withum.
Jeremias [00:30:09] That's it. Withum.
Phil [00:30:10] Only one person? [Laughs]
Jeremias [00:30:12] It's Withum, Smith and Brown. So we go by WSB, Withum, Smith, and Brown, but our shortened name is Withum.
Phil [00:30:19] OK, do you want them to send you an email? Well then have your email address or should they call the firm? What should they do?
Jeremias [00:30:26] If they want to email me, they could even look online. They can find email addresses of H.R. or different people that work at the firm. Also, they can contact their if they're out at college, for example, and they want an internship opportunity, they could reach out to someone in their career center and they could connect them with someone at our firm. Usually we work with a lot of colleges. We go out, we do recruiting. So we're always looking for people from different colleges who are interested.
Phil [00:30:59] Are they mostly coming from the New York area or a lot of people from out of state?
Jeremias [00:31:04] Yeah, so we have offices mostly in the north eastern region. So we have all the way from, I think Philly all the way up, a lot of offices in New Jersey. So we see a lot of people from all different parts of the Northeast. But we've now seen a lot of people, especially in New York City, it's so diverse that people come from all parts of the country or even all parts of the world where we see someone who did college in South Carolina. Then they come back up to New York and they're applying for a job.
Phil [00:31:35] I thank you very much for doing this, being a guest on the podcast. And if you want information, all right, and you can't find it, you can contact me. I will get you the information. And my phone number is (301) 874-4900, extension 5. Extension five is my direct line. And if you have any questions on CPA Review, as I told you, I've been doing this for forty-two, forty-three years and I'm only six years old when I started. So I was a child prodigy in accounting. In fact, my first words out of my mouth were CPA. My mother was amazed. But anyway, that's not true. So don't believe that story. But anyway, thank you very much, Jeremiah, for being on. It is a pleasure to meet you. And I think you gave a lot of good points, especially studying for the exam. And, you know, everyone has different opinions, but I would say I agree with what Jeremiah has said.
Phil [00:32:40] All right, so, Jeremiah, take care. May you stay--no one's gotten sick of your firm, have they?
Jeremias [00:32:47] A couple of people. We're New York City so it's bound to happen.
Phil [00:32:53] Yeah, well, New York is no longer the...
Jeremias [00:32:57] We're no longer the hot spot, but definitely at the beginning, a couple of people here and there and...you never know who's going to get it.
Phil [00:33:02] Wear your mask. I think that's the key thing. And at some point, maybe late summer will start getting vaccine shots. You want to get them. So anyway, I wish everyone a good evening. Stay healthy, be kind to people. Don't be nasty. Be kind. And next Tuesday, we have a new show every Tuesday, and if there's a topic you covered, please contact me by calling the number I gave you and we'll do our best to get a guest who's actually in that area. Take care everyone and have a good evening.
Narrator [00:33:35] Thank you so much for listening to Yaeger, CPA Review and more as a token for our appreciation for your listenership. We'd like to offer you 10 percent off your next purchase with Yaeger CPA Review, say, between fifty to one hundred and fifty dollars with code podcast 10. If you'd like more information, look us up on Yaeger, CPA review dot com. And as always, if you've enjoyed this show, please rate and review on iTunes or your preferred listening platform.
Narrator [00:34:04] Again, thank you so much for listening. And we look forward to you tuning in next time.